Does B2B social marketing work? Is marketing just an odd jobs department?

Welcome to the Marketers of the Universe podcast, hosted by the delightful Haydn Woods-Williams, digital marketing team lead at Brew Digital. In today's episode, we dive into two hot topics. First, we explore whether B2B social media marketing is worthwhile. Our senior social media manager, Debbie, leads the discussion on how B2B brands can leverage social media for real-time engagement, brand personality, and customer support. 

In the second segment, we open the gladiator ring for a battle royale debate on whether marketing gets the respect it deserves. Our panellists have just 30 seconds to make their case. Is marketing just a glorified odd jobs department, or does it play a crucial role in business success? Tune in and embrace the chaos as our marketers fight their case while giving practical insights to enhance your marketing strategy. 

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Timecodes

0:00 Introduction

1:25 Is B2B social marketing worthwhile?

12:52 Marketing Battle Royale: Does marketing deserve respect?

29:19 Outro

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Auto-generated transcript

Freya Willcox

And tell me whether you can hear any screeching in the background? Yeah, uh, okay it's not what gimme foul and there's, oh, they're stopped.

Freya Willcox

They're so loud

Haydn Woods-Williams

Welcome to the marketers of the universe podcast. I'm Haydnn woods, williams digital marketing team lead and new dad at brew digital and I'm here with a plethora of awesome marketing topics. To kick things off, our senior social media manager, debbie, is talking about whether B2B brands are wasting their time on social media. If you feel like you may be in a bit of a social rut, then that will be a topic for you. Rut, then that'll be a topic for you. We'll also be opening up the gladiator ring and letting the marketers fight to the death as we discuss if marketing is now just a glorified odd jobs department. We're taking that in a new direction. Answers must be less than 30 seconds or I'll stop you, and we're treating this like a, for trademark reasons, battle royale. If you go over your time, you're out of the ring and the next contenders up. But for now, let's get on with the podcast.

Debbie Gacutan-Jardim De Oliveira

Hello, hello and welcome again to the social and fun section of this podcast. Thank you to Hayden for the introduction. Today's topic is a bit of a tricky one because we may not have a job after this, but we're going to go forward. I am joined by no other than our lovely team that helps out around for our clients on social media. We have Salphie. Hi, Salphie, Welcome to the panel.

Saufi Mohd Nor

Hi, I'm also a new dad, but a cat dad.

Debbie Gacutan-Jardim De Oliveira

Okay, cat dad, and hi to Freya Welcome.

Freya Willcox

Hi, I'm not a new parent and I do not plan to see anytime soon at all.

Debbie Gacutan-Jardim De Oliveira

What do I reply to that? I don't know. So the first question that I want to put out there and it's good that this space is a safe space what do you think is the unique advantage that social media brings to the table that B2B brands can think about when they compare this channel to, I would say, a more traditional marketing channel?

Saufi Mohd Nor

I think number one is just with how everything is. It's just kind of speed Because imagine, like back in the days I mean I can't really speak for back in the days, but as far as what I know, when people used to go to go to conference it's still a new software and all versus now where people can just, you know, like search for software that your team needs. So I think speed does help and with the social media kind of existing, it kind of make it like easier for you to kind of learn about a new product, a service and offering, versus back then you kind of really have to rely on like the newspaper, the conference or contact the salesperson, but now customers can technically just kind of do it themselves. I would say that's the number one advantage that B2B should kind of play with.

Freya Willcox

Social media offers a sort of real-time engagement that you can't get anywhere else, and it's a really great place for B2B businesses to show their brand personality and establish brand identity online. It also offers a level of shareability that I don't think anything else does. Social media is just a great way for customers and clients to engage with brands.

Debbie Gacutan-Jardim De Oliveira

It's interesting that you mentioned about brand personality, because now more and more brands nowadays talk a lot about their online social persona and really social media is where you see that a lot. How do you find like B2B customers engage with the social media accounts versus with B2C customers or just regular customers that are not on the B2B?

Freya Willcox

spectrum. Platforms such as LinkedIn are really great for professionals and people in the B2B space, but also many B2B customers use social media to research products and for customer support. Social media is a great place to get responses and answers from brands quickly, and I think personally I have used LinkedIn and Instagram to research platforms before and get a really good idea of a brand's personality and a more in-depth level than I think you can get sometimes from a website.

Saufi Mohd Nor

I would say it's slightly, that it's a slight different compared to B2C customers, because for B2C customers like myself, when I go on social media, sometimes for food, sometimes for I don't know what movie to watch and so on, but, like with B2B, it's slightly different in a way that I would say in terms of how casual they are. That's not the same as B2C customers. So I think as a B2B you need to find the right balance, which so far I think we'll talk about it a little bit more later I've kind of started seeing more b2b brands really know how to balance that, to kind of make sure it's still professional because you know, like most people like chatting, asking for software or whatever they want to use for work, but also still kind of being in touch with the more casual, fun, human side of it.

Debbie Gacutan-Jardim De Oliveira

One thing that we hear quite a lot, especially when you work on social media, is the question of like. How do you make sure that these interactions are actually valuable interactions? Some might say that you know the like. These are very fluffy numbers. You know you put a part like a thumbs up into your post, like, but what does that really mean? How do you ensure to your clients to build that trust and actually measure that what you're doing is bringing impact to the company?

Saufi Mohd Nor

Number one, I think, just to kind of make sure what you are doing impactful, just kind of know what your organization want to achieve. So this is something that, at least in my experience so far that businesses I feel like everyone have heard this. Businesses like oh, I want my social media posts to go viral, my customers all see it, but the reality is not everything is going to go viral. I'm sorry. Maybe your business is everything to you but it's not everything to your customer or potential customers out there to you, but it's not everything to your customer or like potential customers out there. So you have to understand that some social media posts maybe just to entertain or educate your current and potential customers, but there are some that you can kind of track a performance to something that's more like tangible, like your revenue, your webinar sign up, your lead generation and so on. So understanding that difference will be helpful and, of of course, as like a social media manager, you have to make sure you know how to communicate that to your clients.

Saufi Mohd Nor

Like this thing is for the awareness side, this thing is for something that's slightly more tangible for you to measure, because there's not really one size fits all, because if you think about it. Let's say a webinar post, for example. You may think the likes is kind of like a vanity, but without the likes very few people are gonna see it. So you know, like, the more the likes, the more the repost, the more the comments. That's how you kind of get more people to kind of see it. So eventually it does helpful.

Freya Willcox

But it's just a matter of understanding which metric is for what business outcome that you want I honestly think selfie covered genuinely every point I had, but I I think a really good point to also consider is that when you're posting, you're not always posting for you. What you think you want to post might not be right for what your target audience want to see, and I think sometimes you need to need to consider that posts that you think you would want to see aren't what your customer would want to see, and so then they won't always do the best and a healthy balance of both so you get your brand personality across but also give your customers what they want to see is a really good way of engaging with your customers. Online Customers, clients engaging with your clients online.

Debbie Gacutan-Jardim De Oliveira

One thing that I would love to also chat about with you guys is your experiences working with clients. Are there certain challenges that you have faced that you feel like you needed to overcome when working with B2B clients compared to B2C clients?

Saufi Mohd Nor

Number one challenge I can think of, I think B2C, because I've worked in both B2C and B2B. I can say b2c clients, for example, b2c businesses they kind of have like really in mind that the end you, the people they are targeting, are actually human. But b2b business can sometimes forget it. I think we as a team kind of discuss it like you know, like why you want all the content to be gated that people have to like sign up, click here and there, just to get it. Because, like imagine your b2b business. Or just imagine you're like a real person talking to your friend or your co-worker like, hey, do you want to know something? And then you ask people oh, you want to know, please click here and sign up here. Like nobody's gonna do that, nobody's gonna want to continue the conversation with you. So just kind of remembering that at the end of the day, like, yes, you're targeting the head of id, you're targeting the cfo head of marketing or whatever your persona is, it's still a human being. So yeah, it's such a basic thing to remember.

Freya Willcox

But I would say like in b2b that's definitely like a bigger pain points compared to like b2c businesses I think the deciding what approach you take to social media and what platforms you use can be quite daunting. But if you go in with a clear idea of how you want to represent your brand and what you want to target, clear goals for your channels, like, eventually you will get there. Um, personally, one of the big challenges for me and when I took over our Instagram has been the speed and turnaround of which you need to get content onto platforms like Instagram to hit the algorithm. And we are definitely getting there, like with the help of the team and the amazing design team. I'm getting more organized and we're getting more streamlined in our ability to put out good quality content. But I think at the beginning it can be quite disheartening. So you just need to keep going and eventually all the cogs will sort of fall back into place and you will end up hitting that Instagram algorithm. You just need to keep going and pushing through the initial tension.

Debbie Gacutan-Jardim De Oliveira

Last question of the panel. I'd love to shake things up. Is there anything that you're seeing B2C brands doing so well on their social media that you'd love for the B2B to be just like open to it and would try it on their own social channels? Selfie first.

Saufi Mohd Nor

Just be a little more unhinged, but professional still. I do feel like B2B are always kind of playing it too safe. But I have a good example. If anyone haven't seen TikTok different people pronounce it differently SEMrush, semrush go to their TikTok. I enjoy it. I do feel like they does a good job. Like some posts are like okay about their business, but some posts just doesn't make any sense. But it reminds me of them. Their name will be almost on top of my head when I think about, like you know, like a marketing kind of software platform. So I think, yeah, just have fun. Like come on, we're not saving lives here, so just have fun a little bit, just try to find the right balance. I would say that Just have fun.

Debbie Gacutan-Jardim De Oliveira

I think like you hit a string there. We are constantly also telling our clients that we understand that you are talking about high level technical stuff, but at the end of the day, people buy from people and you need to also seem like a human and come across as a relatable person on social. But with that said, freya, do you want to wrap us off with, like, your thoughts?

Freya Willcox

I just completely agree. Also, I was in a talk the other day with someone who worked at SEMrush and you're right, it is SEMrush, but I've not been in b2b social media that long. But, like Selfie said, recently I have seen an uptake in reels and short videos with a more fun and fresh take on B2B marketing and really like targeting their Gen Z audience and where their attention lies, allow people an insight into the people behind the business and also help build connections with their audience, whilst being great for engagement. And another brand that do B2B and B2C marketing that is just completely unhinged is Duolingo. I am obsessed with their TikToks and their socials. They're just great. So if you want a great example of unhinged content, go look at Duolingo.

Debbie Gacutan-Jardim De Oliveira

That's a lot of good pointers. For me, the biggest takeaway here yes, B2B brands, you still need the social media space. It's not just all about bringing home the money, but also trying to play the game in the law.

Haydn Woods-Williams

So today we are looking at a what's your take, and our statement that I want our team members to discuss is marketing has lost its way and we're all drowning in pointless tasks. We're taking this in a new direction. Answers must be less than 30 seconds or I'll stop you, and we're treating this like a for trademark reasons, battle royale. If you do go over time, you're out of the ring and the next panelist contender is up. Consider this a marketing battle royale. Kicking us off in our trademark reasons battle royale is uh, our email, senior email marketing manager, mark bundle, our head of digital marketing services, rich harper, and kieran o'neill, who is an account manager for brew digital. Question number one, and I'm throwing it to rich do you think marketing gets the respect it deserves?

Rich Harper

no is the uh solid answer there in the 30 seconds that I've got, and I also believe that marketers have potentially bought that on themselves. I love that leave it hanging.

Haydn Woods-Williams

Leave it hanging. Anyone else want to chime in on that?

Mark Bundle

yeah, go on. I think they do get the respect they deserve. Unfortunately, a lot of the time they don't deserve an awful lot. Bad marketing gets no respect, nor should it. Sadly, there's not enough good marketing in the world and I think when it does crop up, people love it and it goes viral and it gets talked about.

Ciaran O'Neill

I don't think it gets the respect that it deserves. You can go all the way back to Bill Hicks' stand-up where he just says kill yourself. We provide a service, a service that is unfortunate for some people in terms of their views and opinions of it, but it's necessary.

Rich Harper:

I'm going to say as well. I agree with Mark in a sense that bad marketing is the reason why we potentially don't get the respect. I'm going to disagree with him on the fact that marketing gets respect, because I think good marketing gets circulated and respected by other marketing people, not people outside of marketing.

Mark Bundle

I strongly disagree with that. Think of, like holidays are coming, the Coca-Cola campaign. That's globally recognized as the start of Christmas and that's not a marketing thing. So the good marketing where it's done properly, is respected, is recognized outside the community.

Rich Harper

This is not not my toilet I was going to say, is it respected by people, though? Do they actually know that it's marketing? I disagree. I don't. I think people see adverts.

Ciaran O'Neill

I don't think they respect them for for what they are if you said is marketing and marketing creative b-classes art, you'd get shot down. But I actually think there is an art form in creative. But also, who is what tends to be the first department that gets culled during a redundancy process.

Rich Harper

Everyone thinks marketing is just advertising. It's not, and, mark, you fell into that trap a little bit by going about the Coca-Cola. That's just advertising. It's not marketing in general.

Mark Bundle

No, but it's an example of marketing and surely if one part is respected, that means that marketing as a whole has some respect.

Rich Harper

It has some respect, but not nearly enough. We'll agree on that part.

Haydn Woods-Williams

Okay, I'm going to stop everyone there and introduce into the ring Nasha Nasera from our paid media team. She's one of our paid media managers. You are up as well. From our paid media team. She's one of our paid media managers. You are up as well. Building on that, we're talking there about marketing being advertising. What is the most important thing a marketer should be doing?

Ciaran O'Neill

Know your product, know your audience, know your boss. You do the above and you'll build strong, lasting connections with your audience of choice. You'll drive that brand loyalty and you'll achieve the business goals while probably getting an easier sign off from the higher ups.

Rich Harper

Have a bloody plan because so many marketing departments and companies have no marketing plan or no marketing strategy. In fact, I saw a survey and this is only a snapshot is about 2000 decision makers that around 67% of SMEs do not have a marketing plan. That is just shocking.

Nasya Nasseira

I would say putting yourself in your customers' shoes and understanding them to a T, and also believing in whatever product or service you're marketing, because if you don't, you will have a really hard time convincing others as well.

Haydn Woods-Williams

Because we seem to be really good at this 30 seconds thing. We're now getting down to 20 seconds because I need to throw some people out of this ring. I often hear that marketing is the odd jobs department.

Mark Bundle

Do you agree? Definitely. I think marketers very much get the oh, this is marketing in the way that Rich was referring to earlier on as this nebulous thing that does stuff A lot of this, that and the other kind of being passed down to. It's a lead in there somewhere I would say it depends.

Nasya Nasseira

This can be true in smaller companies where marketers wear many hats, which I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially if you're still new to marketing, you'll learn a lot. But in the well-structured tools role are more defined.

Steph Smith

If you treat your marketing department as if it's an odd jobs department, then you will quickly realise that you don't have a marketing department.

Haydn Woods-Williams

For the purpose of our listeners there. That was Steph Smith, our head of design.

Steph Smith

No, let me in. I'm chomping at the bit out here, Hayden.

Haydn Woods-Williams

What she has done there by accident is actually knock Rich Harper over the ropes and he's out of there. Steph, you're up up.

Steph Smith

I just said my piece. You gotta look after the marketing department. You know that's right rich. Yeah, I can see you. I can see you look after that marketing department and it won't be there you've just thrown me out I don't move in the conversation on uh.

Haydn Woods-Williams

We in our last episode spoke a little bit about data, and collecting first party data is the overuse of data creepy uh, yeah, well, it kind of depends on how it's used, but it's rather insidious.

Ciaran O'Neill

Having about like thousands of data points on me, uh, and an algorithm that understands my triggers more than I do, I've got over a kieran going as fast as I possibly can.

Mark Bundle

There's a really famous story about an american supermarket where they sent a girl a leaflet about pregnancy products before she told anyone she was pregnant because the their analysis had worked out before. Um, she'd gone bomb.

Haydn Woods-Williams

Look, that's definitely creepy is there anything more annoying as well if anyone's ever got engaged to anyone?

Haydn Woods-Williams

When you're looking for a wedding ring and then you start getting targeted by ring advert, that's that's annoying

Mark Bundle

worse on creepy data is that things like alexa now listen to you, when they don't say they listen to you. Now we're in the privacy policy. Does it say it's collecting what you're saying? But clearly they do, because the number of times you'll say something in earshot of other devices and you'll start getting ads along that line.

Haydn Woods-Williams

That clap. At the end there was Mark tripping over and falling out of our ring, bringing in Danica Wolpel, who is a senior at Fullstack developer, and kicking the question off with what do you think the perception of marketing is from those in disciplines outside of marketing?

Danica Walpole

Not enough people see the value in it until it's too late and be like oh wait, why isn't our product doing well? Because you haven't dedicated time and money towards marketing.

Nasya Nasseira

I think marketing is seen as a cost center rather than a direct revenue driver for the business, and you can see this clearly across companies, especially when COVID happened, the marketing team would be the first to go. So keep shouting about what you do. Show them your value.

Haydn Woods-Williams

Keep on that question because we've mentioned marketing is the first team who is made redundant, and Nastya just said there as well about COVID and marketers being kicked out there. Do you think marketers are doing enough to justify their existence in a business.

Danica Walpole

Yes, I think they are doing enough. I just think it's down to people to listen more and not think of them as an afterthought. Think of them at first.

Steph Smith

I would agree with that, in that I don't think it's the marketer's place to justify their existence. If they've been hired for a job, it's the understanding that their boss knows what they're there for. Thus they are valued.

Haydn Woods-Williams

Kieran's keeping his mouth very shut. He's kind of hiding in a corner at the moment Still in the ring, though, or is he? I think he just fell out and we're bringing in our senior social media manager, debbie Gakuzan Jardim de Oliveira, into the conversation, and I'm going to go all the way back to our title question has marketing lost its way?

Debbie Gacutan-Jardim De Oliveira

Oh, okay, I don't think marketing has lost its way. I think it's defining its way with all the new trends coming out there. Kind of the woke year of marketing is here and we're all about it.

Steph Smith

One thing I think that marketing has lost its way in is storytelling. Don't give me the advertising spiel, but I think we're missing narratives now and I think it's due to our short attention spans, but I would love a bit of narratives coming back.

Debbie Gacutan-Jardim De Oliveira

Okay, I'm going to go back to what I said, but I do think that those stakeholders have lost their way by thinking that marketing is a quick way to achieve their goals, forgetting about their objectives first and thinking that actually you have to make the client fall in love with you first than getting their money.

Haydn Woods-Williams

Oh, that was close and I think, debbie, as much as I love your opinions, I think you were maybe just a little bit over the time there. So you are out of the ring and we are bringing Freya Wilcox stepping into the ring as our Digital Marketing Coordinator. Keeping that question open, open has marketing lost its way?

Freya Willcox

I don't know. I've only just got into marketing. I've been in marketing a year. I don't think so. I think it's just changing. You know it's changing its direction. These birds are so bloody loud. Yeah, I've been in marketing for a year, so get back to me in a year and I'll answer you right.

Nasya Nasseira

Delay the question yeah, might say so, but I agree with Freya, I don't think so. It's evolving, and that's what I love about marketing it's never boring, and it's all about finding new ways to reach and engage with our audience where they are.

Haydn Woods-Williams

And just because I like this, we've spoken in our last section about social media. Are there too many fake influencers who are diluting marketing messaging?

Steph Smith

I would say actually, no, you're separating the cream from the milk, and that is entirely down to the audience. It's up to them to figure out who they want to relate with it, not our job. It's our job to put the right people in front of them there's too many, I think.

Ciaran O'Neill

Unfortunately, we can try and put the right people in front of certain uh, certain audiences, but there will be those kind of fake ass influencers who will manage to get in there because they've got the following and they suck because they just shit out fOMO vibes and make everyone second guess what they're doing.

Haydn Woods-Williams

You're universally hated, just FYI what has happened there for the context of the audience is Cieran O'Neill, our account manager, has dived into the ring, taking out Steph and Nasia at the same time, as well as chucking himself out the ring too and landing on the floor. Everyone looks a little bit embarrassed, and in to the ring comes Salfie Noor, our social media manager, and also Shinru Chow, who is our SEO marketing manager as well, and jumping in after them quite sneakily is Rich Harper, who's trying to get a bit of a redemption section into his for trademark reasons Battle Royale career Question. Actually, no, I'm going to leave it there. Are there too many fake influencers who are diluting marketing messaging.

Debbie Gacutan-Jardim De Oliveira

I think I need to say this very quickly because I'm afraid of being pushed out again. I think the problem is not having fake influencers. The problem is that clients do not understand what the right influencers for them. They think that big followers equals big impact. Not the case. Think again, done.

Haydn Woods-Williams

Thank you, Debbie. She wasn't actually in the ring, but she just jumped up onto the side with a metal chair and just kind of smashing people in the face with her snippets. Still an open question.

Freya Willcox

I just want to second this and say that if you have good marketing and good brand identity, then people will like you, regardless of the influencer. Big following doesn't mean I don't know big benefits like people will fail with influencers, whether they're big or small I think I want a third.

ShinRoo Chao

No, I got a second opinion again, just like I think, uh, those people want to be an influencer, they know the formula to get a follower. They kind of know what things can attract followers. So big amount of follow doesn't mean they can bring uh, uh like huge impact or huge benefit on the campaign that the company want to do that was shinru ch, who has come in with a banger but sadly gone over our 30-second limit and been chucked right back out of the ring.

Haydn Woods-Williams

Mark Bundle jumps at the opportunity to join us and I'm going to go all the way back to kind of our feelings as marketers here. How do you set boundaries as a marketer? You've spoken about the odd job machine, spoken about Amati's marketing blast. How do you set boundaries as a marketer? We've spoken about the odd job machine spoken about is marketing lost? How do you set boundaries as a marketer so that people treat you well?

Saufi Mohd Nor

Saturday I have the courage Okay, what's the question? To set boundaries. I think it's quite easy For social media. Number one don't ask me to make things go viral. Just please don't. That's my number one biggest wish Don't ask me to make things go viral. It just doesn't happen that way.

Steph Smith

Thank you If you have personal boundaries and you can really stick up for yourself. In that sense, no one's going to walk over you at work as long as you're professional with it. Don't take responsibility for anyone else's lack of planning. That's always my go-to advice.

Haydn Woods-Williams

Any more insights into how to set boundaries as a marketer?

Nasya Nasseira

learn to say no I wanted to say that learning to say no to things that don't align with your end goal is important, but when I talk about what I do in marketing, there are no boundaries in digital marketing. Try to learn and experiment as much as you can thank you, nasia, who has come diving back into the.

Haydn Woods-Williams

It's now a bit of a free-for-all, to be honest, and someone's ripped the ropes down and our for trademark reasons Battle Royale ring has yeah, you can just fight whoever you like. And I'm going to wrap things up and ask the question what's one thing that we need to remember as marketers in order to do the job to the best of our ability?

Mark Bundle

It's just a job. Make sure you look after yourself first. If you're not looking after yourself and making sure that you're in the right space and the way you do the best you can do, anything you're doing isn't as good as it should be.

Nasya Nasseira

Don't consistently share your results, everyone will assume your project is a flop. So learn how to analyze data. Data is your best friend. That's all I can say.

Ciaran O'Neill

Just remember there's a human on the other side of this being controversial.

Rich Harper

stop doing shit. Marketing Like really really annoying. Like I'm just going to say this as an industry if any industry woke up and realized that most of what they did did not work, do you think people would put up with it?

Haydn Woods-Williams

leave that long lingering silence that, as everyone looks back at the marketing campaigns that they've run this month and goes, am I one of these people running shit car campaigns that rich harper from brew digital is talking about probably run shit marketing campaigns myself. I feel like, if is talking about probably run shit marketing campaigns myself, I feel like if you've not run a shit marketing campaign, you're not a marketer exactly.

Rich Harper

Just to put that out there. I am not the uh, I I'm not the god of marketing that everything that goes out is successful. I am also flawed we run.

Haydn Woods-Williams

We once ran a direct mail campaign to a list of people where the addresses were out of date, where we put boost bars into a box and said boost your revenue, send this out in the post to people. Of the 250 people on the list, I think about 120 were bounce backs. So over a six week period we got 120 boost bars returned to the office and I ate far too many of them. Uh, and on that, not gonna say bombshell because that's uh, jeremy clarkson, isn't it? So I won't say that. Uh, on that for trademark reasons. Battle royale excitement. We're gonna to end the podcast. That is all we have time for today.

Haydn Woods-Williams

So thank you so much for everyone listening and sticking with us during that carnage session. We hope you found some useful snippets in this session and are able to go and put them into your own marketing strategy. We love that. You've made it this far for your listen. We love making. You've made it this far for your listen. We love making this content. If we could give you our chat log to see how much we love making this content, we would. We might Keep an eye out If you can recommend this show to one friend that you think would enjoy listening, or a colleague or an ex-colleague or whoever, please do. Thank you, as always, to the Brew Digital team for their research into the topics for today's session. Make sure you go and check out our past episodes, subscribe to whatever platform you use to listen to your podcasts on, and we'll see you on the next one. I've been Hayden and these superstars are the marketers of the universe.