Instagram's safety revamp, and quick SEO strategy wins

What if the social media platforms you love are about to change forever? Join us on the Marketers of the Universe podcast as we tackle the exciting shifts happening across Instagram, LinkedIn, and TikTok. Debbie, Freya, and Emily dissect Instagram's latest safety measures designed to protect young users and LinkedIn's bold step into short-form video content with LinkedIn Shorts. Emily highlighting the tightrope act between necessary safety updates and the potential alienation of current users, while Freya discusses the ease with which users might sidestep these restrictions. We weigh in on the impacts these developments might have on platform appeal, especially in the B2B tech realm, where change seems to stir fewer waves.

Our second section decodes the essentials of SEO, with ShinRoo offering practical advice on enhancing user experience and sharing success stories of revamped content that boosted engagement. Quick wins are the best kind of wins, and we have plenty to help you advance your SEO strategy.

This episode is packed with insights to help you navigate the changing world of digital marketing, and if you want more like it, hit subscribe, or go through our past episodes.

If you're looking for more hands-on help, Brew Digital offer a free digital marketing audit, which you can find out about here!

Timecodes

0:00 Introduction

2:00 What marketers need to know about Meta's new teen safety measures on Instagram

24:13 Quick SEO wins

38:34 Outro

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Auto-generated transcript

Haydn Woods-Williams: 0:02

Let's make this decision at some point and then decide why I'm just going to be making up URLs. Welcome to the Marketers of the Universe podcast. I'm Hayden Woods-Williams, digital marketing team lead here at Brew Digital, and today we are delving into the big world of social media. Instagram's recently rolled out some new safety features that definitely need a little bit of discussion, and LinkedIn has jumped on the bandwagon of short form video with their creatively named LinkedIn Shorts. We'll be asking Debbie and the social team how they see things changing from a user and a marketer's perspective.

Haydn Woods-Williams: 0:50

Then we are jumping over to our SEO team, which is very apt, actually, because we're recording this a day before some of the team head to Brighton SEO. We're continuing our how to make quick, impactful changes sessions. We'll delve into some of the easiest things you can do to make sure your SEO is working harder for you. I'll also take this time to mention that we're offering free digital marketing reviews with insights from our marketing experts on everything your business is doing across digital marketing and reviews across individual channels as well. Head over to www.brewdigital.com/digital-marketing-review. That is, www.brewdigital.com/digital-marketing-review.

Debbie Gacutan: 1:33

Anyway, let's get on with the podcast other than it's me, debbie, senior social Social Media Manager here at Brew. Today's episode is going to be very interesting, as it's all about social media. So who are in the call with me? Freya, would you like to introduce yourself?

Freya Willcocks : 2:19

Hi, I'm Freya and I'm the Digital Marketing Coordinator here at Brew.

Debbie Gacutan: 2:23

Digital. Welcome Freya. I think you all know Freya by now. She has been on our other episodes and with Freya is my good friend from ScriptRunner, social Media Manager Emily, say a few words to our audience. Hello, audience.

Emily Moulder : 2:39

I'm Emily. I'm the Social Media and Community Manager over at ScriptRunner, part of the Adaptivist group, and I've been at the Adaptivist group for about two years now and I got my start in Brew covering for the fabulous Debbie and then I wiggled my way over to a different social role. So, yeah, social for life.

Debbie Gacutan: 2:58

Social for life indeed. Well, we have a very interesting topic today, as we are going to go deep, deep into all the social media changes happening right now. So we'll get started. First on our list is the recent Instagram change, basically making it more safe for younger users. How do you feel about this in terms of like? How will it really influence the younger, the behavior of our younger users? Emily, do you want to go first?

Emily Moulder : 3:27

I think ultimately, the genie is somewhat out of the bottle. Um, and making a platform safer, after the fact, I think broadly has two impacts. Uh, firstly, it does make it safer for the users who are not yet on the platform. So so for the future, and that's great, that's always important. But the other impact, I think it makes it unappealing for the people who are already on the platform, and I'm talking specifically about the younger demographic.

Emily Moulder : 3:57

So I think it's ultimately a good thing, because it's never too late to do the right thing, but I do think it will have an impact on who stays on the platform, because the perception of safety can be that the platform is suddenly the fun police.

Emily Moulder : 4:10

Even if that safety recommendation or filter or however it manifests, even if it's for your own good and will ultimately have a net benefit on you as a person, it suddenly feels less fun, it feels less free, it feels like there are restrictions in place that they they weren't previously. So ultimately it's a good thing and it'll be a good thing for the, for the future of the platform, because it's necessary and young people are extremely vulnerable in these spaces. So I do think it ultimately is a good thing, but I do think there will be a perception of got a bit, got a bit tighter being in the rain, and I I think that can be a bad thing when it comes to retaining your current user base. They will ultimately drop as they as they get older anyway, and they start to migrate to other places.

Debbie Gacutan: 4:57

Tiktok is obviously the massive competitor in that space, but I think it's a good thing that they're doing this yeah, I mean, I completely agree and it's worth um you know, following up on this and how does it change the user, um the users on the platform? Um, what are your thoughts, raya? I mean, how does this feel for you? I know you have younger siblings. Does it feel much more secret than you at this point?

Freya Willcocks : 5:24

I mean, I think safer is always better and, luckily for them, my youngest sibling is actually 16, so I don't think this applies to them anymore.

Freya Willcocks : 5:33

But it's not too late to make Instagram a safer platform, and I completely agree with all of Emily's points. But I also do think that if people really don't agree with it, they will just change their age, like, as far as I know, there's no, you don't require identification to set up a new Instagram account. So, realistically, those who will be setting up an Instagram account will either fall into two camps those whose parents really care about it, and so we'll make sure that they have the 16 and limit the limit, and the only thing that really changes for them, as far as I know, is that they have to consciously choose who follows them, or those whose parents don't really care and they don't really care. So then they will most likely end up just setting their age as older than they are, so that they don't have to be private until they turn 16. So, yeah, I think they're good changes, but I don't necessarily think they'll be that drastic, because there are easy workarounds for them for people who don't want to comply with them 100%.

Debbie Gacutan: 6:34

Well, lucky for us, on these calls, our clients are B2B tech companies or in the tech space, so we don't have to really worry about how this affects us. But for some of our listeners who run platforms that where their consumers are the younger generation, what's your advice for these marketers?

Freya Willcocks : 6:54

let's go with Freya. To be honest, I don't think that it's going to change that much, because you can still market to these people, because it's not whether they can follow you, it's just whether you can follow them back and, realistically, if you're marketing to a bunch of 16 and unders, you shouldn't be following them back anyway because GDPR, their children, their, yeah. So from a marketing perspective, I don't think you should change your strategy that much. Really.

Debbie Gacutan: 7:21

Interesting, I would think as well, giving my my consent here. I have, in the past, worked in education. I feel like this is a sector that you know. Rather than the younger generation or younger consumers following the brand, they will most likely follow friends, so maybe this influences whether you have a strong ambassador program or advocates or influencers. Maybe that would be something that marketers could start considering. So, rather than you just pushing in content that they might be interested in, why don't you find somebody that is more relatable and could send a more authentic brand message for you rather than you yourself? So that could be something to sense for all our listeners out there.

Debbie Gacutan: 8:08

I think you guys have mentioned TikTok as one of the potential channels that users can move into. Well, tiktok actually has now also extended its video length to 10 minutes, which we find very interesting, as it is one of the platforms pioneering not really pioneering, but really jumping on the short form video trends. Um, do you feel like this move will attract longer form content creators or it will change the platform's unique appeal of bite-sized entertainment?

Emily Moulder : 8:43

I.

Emily Moulder : 8:43

I personally don't think it will massively change what the platform is, but I do think it will start attracting those YouTube creators, those Patreon creators, and giving them the opportunity to do what they do really well, and we've already seen it sort of starting to seep through.

Emily Moulder : 9:02

I am curious as to how, in the long run, this will affect the creators fund and how creators are paid. If I make a 10 minute story, that's 10 videos that aren't monetized individually in the creator fund. So unless the creator fund can accommodate those long-form creators, some of which have budgets and high production values, and because they're used to creating that long-form content, that maybe a certain degree of production value goes into what they make. So if that can't be offset by the creative fund paying them out for what they're doing, I don't know if they'll consider it worth it and they might stay where they are. But I think that that will come in time with whether the type of content they make is the same. They might still make content and it might be longer, but is it comparable to what their viewers could see on their other platforms? I think that would be a really interesting outcome to follow.

Debbie Gacutan: 10:05

Yeah.

Freya Willcocks : 10:06

I think TikTok extending their videos up to 10 minutes was a really smart idea, and also the creative fund is just shambles.

Freya Willcocks : 10:15

I could get into the creative fund for so long, because I don't even think it's either Australia or America, but they don't have the creative fund.

Freya Willcocks : 10:23

So long form video won't really change their monetary value, as well as the fact that I think in England it has to be over a minute anyway to be able to get any money from it. But I will say that I have been watching TikToks and will have suddenly realized oh my god, I've been watching this for like three, four minutes now. It definitely allows more room for sort of creative expression in the form of music videos, short videos and sort of more cinematic footage, and I also think it will maybe not from a YouTube to TikTok perspective, but from TikTok to YouTube. I think it will allow a smoother transition because creators can start creating longer videos and seeing if there's that demand within their following before then transitioning to YouTube. But I don't think it will replace YouTube by any means, because YouTube is very established in what it is and, yes, they have YouTube shorts, but I don't think you can really compare the two.

Debbie Gacutan: 11:20

Do you guys feel like this is almost going into the realm of YouTube as an SEO? We'll see now TikTok as an SEO button.

Freya Willcocks : 11:29

Yeah, and I 100% use TikTok as a search engine as well, more than I had this discussion actually the other day with Jason, our SEO guy and I genuinely do use it more than YouTube not YouTube Google because I like to be able to sort of have a video explaining what I want or video showing examples of where I want to go, rather than Google and having to scroll through lists to see what I want.

Emily Moulder : 11:54

Yeah, I think Google as a search engine has been appropriately critiqued in the last couple of years because it's harder. It's a lot harder to navigate the true value of the content just from the search results page. But additionally, with the incoming of AI and replacing kind of the top snippet, now if that goal is to just give you the answer in an AI snippet A is that correct? And B every link underneath that is not getting traffic because you've just been given the exact answer in theory. So Google as a search engine is in a way, more helpful if AI is correct, but also less helpful because you have to wade through so many sponsored results and clickbait and nonsense. So it's a confusing mess. So it it doesn't surprise me that tiktok and youtube have become such um important search functionalities now at all. But it's also generational as well. Um, tiktok being an an instinctive native search function.

Debbie Gacutan: 13:08

Uh, for young people is is not surprising, but I think it's growing elder demographics as well yeah, exactly, I feel like I've had clients who have asked me to go onto tiktok as well, and these are potential like clients that probably, like 10 years ago, I would not think would go into this platform, but um it. I have yet to post an episode wherein ai is not brought out, so you know what. Let's talk about ai.

Debbie Gacutan: 13:35

Ai, just like in everything, has also touched social media. As um, you know, influence from automating content asian to improving user engagement in general. I want to you know. Influence from automating content to improving user engagement in general. I want to you know, go away from like thinking about how brands have taken advantage of it, because I think it is very obvious from our last episodes about our own tips and tricks on how to take advantage of AI in your digital marketing strategy. If you have not listened to that, if you're listening, go back to our episode right now. It's on the resource page of our website. But, you know, I would like to ask the social media managers on this call like are there any ethical concerns we should be thinking about as this trend grows?

Emily Moulder : 14:38

I think it has been discussed, but I don't think it's at the. With instagram, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. It it's it's way, way too quickly and way too deeply ingrained now in our technological experience of the world. So it's an awkward concern to have. Is ai? Is ai ethical in certain ways? No, but are we going to do anything about that? I think it would take years to actually be appropriately responsive to those concerns raya your thoughts.

Freya Willcocks : 15:11

Yeah, I completely agree with emily. I think, ethically, there are a lot of concerns when it comes to ai. There's a lot of systemic bias. They steal artwork or inspired artwork from artists and copy from copywriters but again, like Emily said, it's ingrained into everything. Now I think TikTok and Instagram do require that you label things AI created if you create it with AI. So there's that on the sort of transparency front. But, yeah, there are lots of ethical concerns as well as sort of setting unrealistic beauty standards. I know there was a while ago, this photo of this woman giving a very old money aesthetic went viral and only when the creator came forward and said that's AI did anybody really realize it was AI, because she was modeled off a model. So I think, to make it in one of many ways a bit more ethical, going forward, people should follow Instagram and TikTok's standard and require things to be flagged if they are created with AI. Yeah, absolutely.

Emily Moulder : 16:20

I think it's the brands that will be responsible in terms of they will adhere to what is appropriate as best as they can, but it's the users of the platform that will be going off the rails, as it were, and trying and testing the limits of what AI can do. The problem in community management, in regards to just social media and product-based community platforms, is how do you stop people using AI to kind of game the system? How do you stop people using AI to post lots of comments to build up a reputation that might have even monetary rewards for it? How do you combat that? It's almost going to be impossible. So not only has it ruined the comment section on LinkedIn already, but it's going to be really hard to distinguish authentic reactions from AI, and we should be really concerned about that. How we combat that, I don't know, but it it should be a big concern moving forward?

Debbie Gacutan: 17:26

yeah, no, 100%. I think, like a lot of AI is not going anywhere. I think, uh, just like the previous technology, you know, ours machines coming into our lives, cell phones I think it's just a matter of like us really taking over the technology and really managing it the right way. So LinkedIn has recently also changed their rules with regard to serving meta images. If you would jump on LinkedIn right now, you would find that most or all of the links are basically small, which is a major issue for B2B clients and companies who are dominating LinkedIn. Emily, how are you solving this, because I do need your tips.

Emily Moulder : 18:07

Oh, first of all, I hate it. I absolutely hate it. I had just gotten to a place, with some work that we were doing, where I was really, really emphasizing the need to make the meta images look a certain way. We're telling a certain story. We're telling a certain story. We're encouraging people to click and explore the content in these ways, and then LinkedIn changed them and made them tiny. I hate it.

Emily Moulder : 18:32

I think it's natural for platforms to push you to spend money, which is, I believe, how you combat the tiny meta images, on LinkedIn at least.

Emily Moulder : 18:41

So I understand why they do it, but it forces my hand and nobody likes that experience of being made to operate in a certain way. So already LinkedIn are having an issue where people are having emotional reactions to this because they've been forced down a pathway. It's actually helpful for me personally, because I'm taking on board more of a zero click, impressions first approach to my social strategy this year. So, inadvertently, I won't actually be spending much more money to get those clicks so that my meta images, you know, display a certain way. I just will be sharing fewer links and I'll be working more on gaining impressions and engagement. Be sharing fewer links and I'll be working more on gaining impressions and engagement. So I did hate it and now I'm less affected by it because I've changed my strategy, because they did that. So thanks LinkedIn. If you hadn't done that, I would be maybe following you down and spending more money on your platform, and now I won't.

Debbie Gacutan: 19:38

That is an interesting point of view as well, because I would have said that you know, it is basically organic, um, organic social, almost going into paid social territory. But I have also felt, like um in the last past months, that I am shifting strategies in terms of content format to exploring more videos, um and you know frail will attest to this like taking on Instagram content and testing them on LinkedIn and how it performs. So it does make forces us social media managers to be a bit more creative on this professional platform that is LinkedIn. Freya, do you have any thoughts to share?

Freya Willcocks : 20:18

I think I mean, you guys have said some great. I think one of the main sort of notes that we should probably end up taking away from this is that there is a lot of changes happening on social media at a very rapid pace and everyoneicking. Tiktok and I happen to be one of those users that has a vertical feed and I can confirm that at the moment I hate it, but yeah so everyone's going to have to focus on being much more flexible, because your content that you've got scheduled to go out may have to change and the content that you've got out may not look how you wanted it to look because of these platforms changing how they optimize things and changing how their sort of apps work.

Emily Moulder : 21:11

So, yeah, lots of changes coming, yeah, I mean. I mean, yeah, I'm absolutely right. Lots of changes, gabrielle. We always have to sort of react to them. We never get to make the decisions of what we would want the platforms to change. We're always in a reactive position and I can scarcely think of an update that a platform's done that has ever made me happy. So maybe that's just the nature of working in social media is you're always reactive and it's never something that you actually wanted to ask for. I, with one exception, the only change I can think of recently that actually made people happy was being able to edit and schedule. Edit the scheduled posts on linkedin. That's the only. That's the only thing that made anyone happy that I've seen recently that I can think of yeah, and to be fair, talking about things that made people happy, is tiktok of.

Freya Willcocks : 21:59

Recently, in a bid to promote in-app editing, made it so that if you want to delete a video but not completely delete it, you can delete it, but it goes back into your draft so you can re-edit it, but only if you've edited it in-app in in a way. That has made me happy because I can re-edit my TikToks, but also it does mean that I have to edit in TikTok, which is not my favorite thing to do.

Debbie Gacutan: 22:23

Lots of nuggets in here and I second that I feel like any social media changes that have happened in the past, I always hated it, but then you live with it and that's the human way. We all just adjust. We end this episode. I would love to hear from our panelists in terms of like, what is like one change that you would do in the coming month in order for you to make sure that you stay ahead of any potential social media strategy changes that come our way. I'd say video content.

Freya Willcocks : 22:58

just get video content into your strategy. Tiktok uses uses it, instagram uses it. Linkedin is optimizing it and really pushing it out over the next five to six months. So if you haven't already schedule and film your video content, Agreed.

Emily Moulder : 23:13

On top of that, make sure it's vertical. I think historically we have a tendency to veer away from vertical because it was really awkward, but it's been proven. It is like the standard now to have vertical videos and if you go on your LinkedIn, on desktop even, you will see a vertical. You know suggested videos and you just need to get over the hump of creating things vertically. You just need to get over the hump of creating things vertically, whether that's filming at an event, you know live people at a booth doing stuff, that's that's vertical. If you're making a brand video, that's vertical. Now, so just get on board. Get on board with vertical video.

Debbie Gacutan: 23:57

Amazing, amazing tips. So there you have it, and this is how we end this episode. Thank you for tuning in. If you have any questions for any social media changes, we do offer an audit of your social presence.

Haydn Woods-Williams: 24:18

So just make sure to reach out. Our second section from today's podcast is titled how to Make Impactful Quick Changes to your SEO. These sessions are designed to look at the big marketing channels that you're working across and just try and pick out one or two things that you can make small changes to in order to improve performance across everything you do With me. Today we have Shinru Chow, who is our SEO marketing manager. Good to have you with us, shinru.

ShinRoo Chao : 24:45

Hello everyone, Good to be here on the session.

Haydn Woods-Williams: 24:52

Cool. So first question Now. Seo is an incredibly important part of digital marketing and of digital marketing strategies, but it's also probably one of the most confusing From conversations I have with generalist marketers. A lot of the time it's something they refer to when they're trying to squeeze as many keywords into their copy. If you were to give a non-SEO expert one single tip for improving their SEO performance, what would it be?

ShinRoo Chao : 25:21

Yeah, I totally agree with what you say. It could be confusing sometimes for SEO because it involves a lot of different aspects from the website, like technical part, the content, the backlinks. There's a lot of things you need to do to kind of see the result for SEO kind of see the result for SEO. So if I can give some suggestions for non-SEO experts, I would just say browse your website, your company's website or your own website yourself from a user perspective, or just invite a friend, family member to do so and see what feedback you will receive. Because you probably just browse your website every day multiple times, you can't really see the most important part. So sometimes you just need to check your mind or wearing other people's shoes just to check the website from another perspective and to see what can be improved.

Haydn Woods-Williams: 26:29

Super. Thank you. I think that's really interesting feedback from users who aren't yourself. I think it's so easy to get caught up in your own brand when you're in that all the time. But a question I've got is with SEO. Are we not optimizing the website for Google rather than for users? How should we approach that?

ShinRoo Chao : 26:50

I would say you need to optimize for both of them. So, definitely, users are the first, because even for search engines like Google, they really care about user experience. So that's why they kind of make a lot of updates or just kind of introduce new ranking factor or some evaluation standard. So user is always the most important. Just see what content we think is high quality or useful for the user, and that's the first step and how to present the content in the user-friendly way, like a UI, ux, way to guide the user or help the user to get the content or get the information they need, but lost.

ShinRoo Chao : 27:49

It's also another important part. So, and another thing for the search engine, of course, in your content or from your, you need to. First of all, you need to make your website credible so that the social media can send a so-called spider to your website to kind of understand what your website is about, what content you provide, about what content you provide and what other third-party other websites actually link to your website. Are they vouchering your website? So, yeah, I think it's important both for user and for search engine.

Haydn Woods-Williams: 28:40

Super, thank you. You've mentioned backlinks and linking to websites, as well as a little bit on the technical side as well. With our listeners and I don't necessarily know if they've, if the knowledge will be there but across seo, we have technical seo, we have on-page seo, we have off-page seo. If you are someone who is looking at this and you want to take that step beyond, you know uh, asking just for user experience, where should their first focus be? Should it be on technical, on the page or off page?

ShinRoo Chao : 29:16

I would say technical is like fundamental things. You just need to make sure your website functions Like you can't really just go to your website and tell you this powerful page and even you can't open it because there's a server issue. So make sure your website, from a technical perspective, is functioning normally. You can open it, you can browse the content, but I would say the very content is the king. Normally you can open it, you can browse the content, but I would say the very content is the king. If you don't have content, then your website is just there like a box, an empty box. Make sure you have a usable website first, and it doesn't really need to be really fancy, but I would say content. Actually, content involves a bit on the page, a bit off page, but I would say just focus on the content. Do the keyword research before you write the content, because you want to make sure what information you want to kind of send to the user and will provide the useful information.

Haydn Woods-Williams: 30:31

That's also interesting, I think. Actually, when you break it down like that, it's quite. It's a lot simpler than it sounds. You know, words like technical on-page and off-page actually sometimes distract from the fact that if you've got great content and a website that is working, it's crawlable, it's simple, you're probably going to be able to have a good foundation in SEO right. With that in mind, have you got any examples of clients that you've helped transform their SEO for, or kind of examples of companies that have done those foundational things really well?

ShinRoo Chao : 31:12

Yeah, I just think of an example, but yeah, it's about content. So one of the clients they actually have quite a few old content that have been performed quite okay, but they are kind of quite old, like two or three years ago, so we can see the impression is there. Actually, the impression is increased but the click didn't kind of catch up. So just when I did the audit for the website, I recommended them to review those old content and maybe we just take one of them to do some experiments. If we update that piece of content and also make sure the date shows the latest date and see what will happen. So it turns out that click actually increased after the update and the impression also increased so it shows.

ShinRoo Chao : 32:27

So ATO is not like you do 100%, they will give you by 100%. It's about test and learn. You always need to do experiments because there are hundreds of ranking factors for the search engine. So it's actually quite good to see that the experiment works. Just update all content and make sure the content is still relevant for the user search and user intent and it turns out the result is positive. So for the website, I would definitely suggest just to do an audit of your website and to see what's the issues among those three pillars we call technical, on-page or off-page and do some prioritization according to the resource, the company files and just do some experiment as soon as you find out the issue super that's.

Haydn Woods-Williams: 33:39

I think that's such good advice, particularly um the old content. I think sometimes when we we talk about any digital marketing channel, there's a bit of scariness to it because it feels like so much work. But actually if all you're doing is going back and well, if one of the things you can do is go back, look at your old content and update it, then actually that's quite an easy thing that you can go and do. Right, you mentioned an audit there. Now this is a shameless plug. We do actually offer free SEO audits to people who are interested. Head over to broodigitalcom, go to our service page and navigate to SEO and you can request one there. But if for clients who maybe aren't ready to work for an agency or can't follow my complex instructions to find those seo things do look in the description, it will be in there. Um, are there any tools that they can use that can help them with getting those basic first steps of an order or starting their seo journey?

ShinRoo Chao : 34:41

yeah, I think the the must is to install the Google Search Console for your website. It's the free tool that Google offers. Then you can check your performance, your click, your impressions, ctr and also the ranking. And in the Search Console you can also check any technical issues they highlight about the index section. You can also check your URL impact section status or any issue. But other than that, I will actually suggest, for the technical and on-page part, screaming Frog and the Cyborg.

ShinRoo Chao : 35:24

These two I've been using since I died in the ACO world. They are a really good tool. They can find really, really detailed issues on their website and also their website or even in the tools. You can find information about what the issue is and how to fix it. So it's quite helpful. And for backlink or content, I think the most popular tools are SEMrush and Ashgraph. They are really good. Especially for backlink, I would suggest Ashgraph and for the content, well, semrush. I think most of them have some free version you can use and try and then you can decide whether you want to purchase the advanced function Super.

Haydn Woods-Williams: 36:28

Thank you. This is obviously a little bit of a loaded question, because here at Brew Digital we are a marketing agency or a digital agency. Sorry, but do you think that companies need to engage with marketing agencies or freelancers or SEO specialist agencies, or is it something that they can do on their own?

ShinRoo Chao : 36:49

I would say it depends. So do they have like a dedicated person or team to do SEO in-house or do they need any support on specific tasks? So they need to kind of review the team condition and also budget-wise. Then they can decide if they need extra help or they really need an agency to be their team, to join their team to do the SEO. So it depends on each company's situation. Then they can decide which one is the best for them to go for.

Haydn Woods-Williams: 37:31

Super and just to summarize, when it comes to SEO marketing, whether you engage an agency or freelancer or not, whether you go and use our SEO review of what we've talked about, what are three things that listeners should go and do right now when it comes to their SEO marketing?

ShinRoo Chao : 37:49

Yeah, I think. First, definitely include SEO in their marketing plan and budget Don't forget it. And second, involve the SEO team in any website project as early as possible. That's very important so they can provide recommendations. I think the other one is come to us have a free audience. That's very important to understand your website performance and know your website. So reach out to us. We can do a free audience for you.

Haydn Woods-Williams: 38:26

Love that at the end there. Thank you so much, shint, so much. That's been really useful. That is all we have time for today. Thank you everyone for listening. Uh, we hope you found some useful snippets from that session and you're able to go and put them into your own marketing. We love that you've made it this far for your listening. We love making this content and would really love it if you could recommend this show to a friend, a colleague, anyone really that you think would enjoy listening. Thank you to the Blue Digital team, of course, for their research and input in today's session. Make sure to check out our past episodes. Subscribe on whatever platform you use to listen to your podcasts, and we will see you on the next one. I've been Hayden and these are the marketers of the universe, woo.