The rise and fall of iconic brands, and busting digital marketing myths

Ever wondered why some of the most iconic brands of our time seemingly vanished overnight? Join us on a nostalgic journey as Mark, Freya, and Saufi dissect the spectacular rise and fall of some iconic brands. Freya shares her personal connection to Topshop and laments its closure, while Saufi provides an eye-opening account of Abercrombie & Fitch's rollercoaster history and remarkable resurgence. Learn how ignoring consumer preferences and failing to adapt can spell disaster for even the most beloved brands.

In the second segment, we challenge the myth that larger marketing budgets always equate to better results. Haydn and Rich discuss how smaller brands like Liquid Death and Surreal are making waves with smart, strategic marketing, proving that innovation and disciplined execution can outperform sheer spending power. They conclude with some practical tips on maximising your marketing ROI efficiently, emphasising the importance of quality leads over quantity.

Get involved!

Interested in debunking more myths and learning how to maximise your ROI without breaking the bank? Good news! We're hosting a webinar on 30 August at 3pm BST titled 'Don’t spend more, spend smarter: Maximising ROI on your marketing spend'. Join our expert team to:

• Learn how to prioritise where to spend your marketing budget

• Understand the planning stages that can help you reduce wasted spend

• Debunk digital marketing myths that add confusion to your planning

Check our socials and brewdigital.com to learn more and sign up. 

Timecodes

0:00 Introductions

1:37 The rise and fall of iconic brands

18:02 Busting digital marketing myths

32:20 Outro

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Auto-generated transcript

Mark Bundle

Making people pay for the things they use, terrible

Tom Inniss

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of marketers of the universe. My name is tom innes and I'm the copywriter at brew digital. It's a slightly shorter episode today, but I think you're still gonna love it. To kick off, mark is going on a trip down memory lane with Freya and Salfie. Together they're going to look at former monolithic brands, how they fell from grace and speculate on which brands may be next. After that, hayden is going to make his long anticipated podcast return after paternity leave to talk to Rich about a webinar. Brew Digital have coming up. If you want to make your marketing budget more efficient, make sure you stick around to listen. Anyway, that's enough preamble. I know you're here for Marketing. Remember blockbuster. Truly, what a time to be alive. Anyway, let's hand over to Mark, salfie and Freya to talk about some other former giants.

Mark Bundle

So, first session today we are going to talk about those big brands of yesteryear that were huge and now aren't. I'm going to talk about the likes of the Blockbusters, the Blackberries of the world, and basically how we can avoid being them, at least in their latter phases. So, freya, I'll start with you. Have you got like a favourite lost brand or kind of fallen brand?

Freya Willcocks

Okay, so I was really thinking hard about this this morning because all the really really big brands I could think of went sort of under when I was quite young. I couldn't really think of a massive, massive like conglomerate that went under recently, but a brand that I genuinely took to the heart was Topshop going under. When Topshop went under, that crushed me. I loved Topshop and as someone who shops on the high street, I genuinely thought it would never go under. And then my local Topshop was one of the first to go under and, yeah, that hit, hit me hard, that hurt, and it's fine if I could shop them on ASOS now, so it's all good it's a real emotional connection to the actual physical store I did my local.

Freya Willcocks

My local shopping center has three shops a new look, h&m and a top shop and it has now still probably like six or seven years later only got a new look at h&m, nothing else um selfie.

Mark Bundle

How about you any kind of favorite?

Saufi Nor

favorite fallen by emmett well the brand I could really think of for this topic. They're not like really fallen, like I mean like teaser for the next question. They're still around and actually doing better, but they did have their flop era. So they definitely flopped for a bit and funnily it's like abercrombie and fish, because I remember it was kind of big, you know, in the 2000s, early 2010s and all. So I was from malaysia, not like really like get have much access to it. So when I first went to the united states I was kind of like a teenager, excited to be a part of the epic crumbie, like yeah, finally got a t-shirt and all. But I remember how funny it was. It was like maybe just only my freshman year. It was kind of the last year it was cool. And then, starting like 2015 onward, they're just kind of flopping so hard Up to the point, I think, towards the end of like the 2010s they're just yeah, like losses and all. But they are still here. So we'll discuss that in our next question.

Mark Bundle

That's a great thing to bring up. Sometimes, just because they flop doesn't mean they die. Um, there are people like abercrombie who struggled but then have kind of, they're still around, they're still existing. Um, nokia, I think, is probably a good example of that as well. So it got bought out by, uh, windows or microsoft for the windows phones which I was an avid user of and bitterly disappointed when they died. But it has been resurrected as an occupant inside Riot. So, yeah, safi, keep talking to me about Abercrombie. Then what kind of do you think caused this dip? And then how are they meant to save themselves?

Saufi Nor

I think essentially with Abercrombie, it's just because I think they don't, I would, if you ask me, it's kind of up to like their leadership back then I would say they're too comfortable thinking that, oh, we have the market share, we are the coolest brand and so on. They don't realize, like the consumer, and are like shifted, like you know, our mindset, our kind of preference and all so being. Sometimes companies can have that mentality that we are too big to fail, and I think that's what happened with Abercrombie back then. They do think they are such a cool brand that, no, we're not going to fail, you know. But as what we see, due to all the controversial I believe it was their former CEO, you know, talking a lot like fat shaming, just really just a lot just a quick Google, like the things that he said, just really terrible publicity. And then we just people kind of like preference for the customer, to kind of we want things that actually fit properly and not just rely on logo. We don't just want to see like shirtless model, like is that? Is that all that they have to offer at that time. So I think that what leads to that downfall really?

Saufi Nor

But I would say like, based on, like what I've seen so far on, like TikTok or like YouTube at all, on how they kind of make a comeback. I like how they shift it back. Like no matter how much marketing budget you have, like no matter how much shocking your marketing idea is, at the end of the day you have to listen to your customer. So doesn't matter what's the trick you're gonna pull, but understanding what the customer actually wants will kind of save you. And essentially that what save Abercrombie? Like they know, like nobody wants to go to like a dim, like lit store anymore, nobody cares so much about super big logo on your t-shirt and all anymore. So for them to kind of slowly change their design and then realizing that now customer really focus on quality instead of just, oh, I want to be cool and all, so they slowly improve on their quality and all, instead of just being an overpriced cool brand.

Saufi Nor

I think that what essentially saved them and after all, now it's not so much about them being a cool brand I do think it's interesting that their marketing now is they know they were kind of big with like the teenagers, young adults back then, so they don't target the gen z's now because they know gen z's don't care about them so much. So they target the younger millionaires and all but the younger millionaires who are like working now you know. So I like how they know, like you know what. We have a safe target market. We just have to kind of shift like the way we approach them compared to the past.

Mark Bundle

So, and I think that's how they are still surviving so knowing your audience are moving with it, I think, must be the key we can bring out there to how to how to come back. Making sure you're aware of your audience, because something we've said on many, many of our podcast episodes make sure you know who it is you're trying to sell to. Um Freya, how about you anything you kind of want to bring out from like any other brands that have, maybe not your favourites Because you said you were quite young when a lot of the big brands went under Any of your favourite stories or anything that have come out of it.

Freya Willcocks

Well, kind of just following on with what Salphie said, I think that area of shopping as a whole flopped for a bit Like Abercrombie, hollister, jack Wills.

Freya Willcocks

All of those brands all went through their sort of flop era at the same sort of time and now they're all coming back by doing these big brand trips and really listening to their customers. I think the only brand in that sort of genre that really didn't have the flop era was Brandy Melville, but I'm not even going to get into Brandy Melville because I could talk about Brandy for way too long. But with Topshop I think it sort of lost its allure when brands such as Boohoo and Asos started to come online and Topshop just couldn't handle the speed at which they needed to operate. The accountancy cloud broke down Topshop's demise really well actually, and they described the fall of Topshop as being customers now wanting cheap, bang-on trend fashion and Topshop just couldn't deliver. I also think COVID really accelerated Topshop's demise massively, especially as their customer target audience was moving online and they just moved online even quicker and they just couldn't keep up.

Mark Bundle

We've finally gone into a space now where it seems to be fashion brands are our big victims today, those that are struggling and somehow surviving. With that in mind, selfie. Are there any other current, more modern brands that we see this being a risk in that they might have this kind of same pattern of them, like flop, and then come back?

Saufi Nor

I wouldn't say they are flopping. They are so big that I don't I can't even call them flopping right now. But I think, like a quick research, like through internet and all, we kind of started seeing people I wouldn't say like criticizing, but just kind of mentioning how Google is kind of lacking now when it comes to like innovation. You know, because they are so big that it takes time for them, especially, for example, like the AI development and all they're kind of behind because the whole thing is just super, super fast. And then we like how TikTok becoming like for the younger generation like a search engine and all they haven't really fully figured out their YouTube short situation, you know. So I would say if Google doesn't really act fast, they might, like you know they're not going to like lose all their customer within next week for sure. No-transcript. Maybe it's just me, maybe I should do like more reading and all. But there are just like tons of really ai company like, for example, like nvidia. I feel like we've all like seen it a lot over internet like it's just like kind of company you don't really hear a lot and suddenly boom, like everybody knows about it. They make so much money and also really no company is really too big to fail. And, as you mentioned before, like like we remember yahoo, like I had a yahoo email I I was not that young, so I had a moment to have a yahoo email and then what happened? Like you know, like I can't even remember when was the last time I even opened yahoo, you know. So yeah, so I would say for now, google.

Saufi Nor

I would say if they don't do anything significant in the next like five years, maybe they will enter their flop era because things are moving super fast with ai. So they gotta catch up, no matter how big they are. They gotta do something then within the next few years, or else someone else will kind of replace that. Maybe wouldn't totally replace them as a whole because they are so big, but as we know, in term of the video platform, tiktok kind of took over them already in certain, like you know, market segments. So if they don't do anything about it, maybe people wouldn't think about, like, youtube at all as a part of google for video people will just go to tiktok. So I would say my answer google for now that's interesting.

Mark Bundle

Like you say, brands too big to fail. Google alphabet is I suppose there isn't a many bigger brands on the planet now, uh, but there's a similar thing going on in america with boeing. Um, the aircraft manufacturers obviously had a whole slew of safety concerns and there's a. Are they too big to fail because they supply a lot of the us government and things, and there's just, is there a need globally for them in terms of their jobs in the aircraft they provide? Um, that, can there be brands that are too big to be allowed to fail? And, yeah, google would be a really interesting case study in that, as other people come through and um, just tacking ai on the end of something doesn't have the same value as it did last year. Freya, anything for you. Any other brands, be all small that you think might be at risk, that they've. They've hit their peak and they're on their way down that.

Freya Willcocks

First off, that boeing thing is crazy, like everything going wrong with boeing. They need some great pr and some very good marketing if they're going to turn everything back around, and I do. I have to agree with google. I don't necessarily see google going anywhere soon, but I think something needs to change because instagram and tiktok definitely are being used more and more as search engines and YouTube is being used less and less as a whole. I could not tell you a single person I know that watches YouTube shorts, because why would you, when you have TikTok and Instagram? And even my friends who don't have TikTok, they have Instagram, so they have no need for YouTube shorts.

Freya Willcocks

And the same with searching for things. People really value honesty, I think, and you can get that straight away through TikTok and Instagram, whereas Google it's a little bit more convoluted and you have people's websites and stuff, whereas if you want a review for a place, just go on TikTok and type in good food in London or good food in Manchester, and then you have hundreds and hundreds of honest recommendations not always honest. You do get people obviously doing brand deals and stuff, but people like easy and accessible things that they can taste, take at face value. So yeah, and then bringing it back to the fashion thing, I think honestly it could happen to any brand. It's going to happen again and again. We saw it happen with Debenhams Miss Selfridge. No fashion brand is safe from failing, really.

Mark Bundle

So we've talked about some of the brands that have disappeared. Uh, so we've mentioned the likes of the Blockbusters, nokia's, yahoo's. Uh, anyone that we're glad to go on? Is there anyone that you know what they just deserved to fail? Uh, freya.

Freya Willcocks

Yeah, I don't really have anything that I think I'm happy it failed. Forever 21, I wouldn't miss. I don't miss. I think targeting teenagers and younger people is a really risky business move, especially because everyone's attention span is getting shorter and people want more change and they want it faster. But I don't have anything that I'm happy to seek on really it's always far too nice.

Mark Bundle

Uh, selfie. How about you? Can you be any meaner? Is there anyone you think you know what they're done?

Saufi Nor

let's just get them gone I think I might be like too mean that my answer is not about some like a company that's gone, but a company that I wouldn't like miss if they're gone, like all these streaming platforms, because now we kind of back to like cable era again, like netflix, hulu, peak power, and just it's like too many like I'm. If one day they are all just like go back, girl, I wouldn't miss it. I'm like yay, I guess they're gonna go back to only netflix and make my life easier instead of like different contents all over the place, because I do believe in in this case, I don't know, maybe netflix, I guess, because it's just that I mean, most of them are not innovating, most of them are not really like giving like a proper good shows that's worth my money. I would say so they're all not gone yet, but if they are gone I would be like that's on you man, that's not on the customers, on the customers.

Saufi Nor

We have a limited money every month to pay for subscription, so you guys got to figure out to give us like the best quality content for us to subscribe every month. But if everybody just gonna break on their own, try to have the exclusivity and all, and just because, as we know, now netflix is struggling. Do you know like more people are subscribing, they're struggling to increase their revenue and all. So, yeah, if they are gone, I would say like, well, it's been great, but it's kind of on you for not giving me more good shows, canceling some of my favorite shows.

Mark Bundle

So, yeah, I would be say them netflix is a fascinating one because it's part of the the cycle that we have a tv, so we had single tv channels and there was loads more in cable and then everyone thought it was too much choice, there's too many different things, so they all aggregated into netflix and then everyone started making their exclusive content and more and more streaming, so it all burst out again. So it's interesting to see the same cycle there that we may be talking about in the retail, where people will come up, drop down and kind of go through these waves and media going through the same thing, I guess.

Freya Willcocks

I can. I just say, would now agree with Netflix, purely because of them changing it so that you can't use it in multiple locations. But making students pay for their own streaming platforms is mean. It's not necessary.

Mark Bundle

And, yeah, I agree with selfie now making people pay for the things they use, terrible. Um, that aside, yeah, the password sharing is obviously, as selfie said, kind of endemic, of the them struggling to drive those revenues. Uh, they, they are looking to kind of clamp down and get. They know they have these users. They're just trying to monetize them. Thank you very much, guys, for that. Uh. So yeah, as we've seen, there's a few brands that are on their way down, some that have gone or that have struggled, that we're we're glad to see. They are, um, kind of finding a new path. Uh, and, yeah, be interesting to see if any of these big giants do go down the pattern in the future.

Tom Inniss

Great Thanks, mark. Did you know that in 2023, the worldwide spend on digital advertising was estimated to be $602 billion? In the UK alone, it reached £29.6 billion, an increase of 11%. That's crazy, right? Well, if you want to buck this trend, spend your budget smarter and improve ROI. This next section is for you. The wonderful Hayden, somehow still fresh-faced with a newborn, is talking to Rich Harper about a webinar we're hosting in August. It's going to be great. So let's dive straight in. We're hosting in August. It's going to be great so let's dive straight in.

Haydn Woods-Williams

I'm back from paternity and sneaking a session in before I resume my hosting duties in August. For those who don't know, I'm Hayden Woods-Williams. I'm the Digital Marketing Team Lead at Brew and we've got a preview of a topic that we'll be discussing in Brew Digital's first ever webinar, which is taking place on the 30th of August. That webinar is called Don't Spend More, spend Smarter Maximizing ROI on your Marketing Spend. Visit the brewdigitalcom resource hub at brewdigitalcom forward slash resources or check out the description of this podcast to find a link to register for your spot. I am joined by Rich Harper, our head of digital marketing services, who will be discussing the topic with me on that webinar. Rich, should we take a few minutes to debunk a few marketing myths?

Rich Harper

Yeah, why not? And welcome back Hayden.

Haydn Woods-Williams

My life is a lot more tired, right? Myth one more money means more results. We'll start with your opinion and then I'll throw mine into the hat as well. What do you think?

Rich Harper

Yeah, we hear this quite a bit often from pressures outside of marketing, not necessarily inside of marketing. I think sales teams are consistently looking for lead volume, not necessarily inside of marketing. I think sales teams are consistently looking for lead volume which puts pressure on marketing. Marketing then instantly turned to okay, how are we quickly going to achieve that? If we pump more money into ad spend, we're going to get more impressions, which is going to result in more clicks, which hopefully will result in more conversions. It's wrong to assume that by spending more money you are going to get proportionally more conversions. We've seen, I've looked into some research in the past and actually when you kind of look the proportionality result of spending more money, it actually kind of starts to the performance starts to to dip from a marketing perspective, in the sense of what sales are looking for. I think it's about making sure that you align with them those, those metrics. You know.

Rich Harper

Ultimately sales are looking for revenue and for that closed one business marketing and and looking for leads, and we've talked about this many times. It's having that misalignment. Do marketing just give you 200 leads, but 75% of them are really poor quality? Or do they give you 100 leads and 75% of them are of a better quality, in which case sales have got that more chance of getting that conversion. So yeah, from a myth perspective, my opinion is that marketing doesn't need more budget to hit those numbers. What they really need to do is make sure that they're aligned with the sales team in terms of what pipeline generation looks like, what that revenue target looks like, and then make sure that the existing spend is working two, three times harder than it needs to kind of hit those KPIs. And that is only going to happen through smart strategy, being focused and disciplined with your execution and not just splashing more cash I think there's a really fine line.

Haydn Woods-Williams

I think there is the the point where, if you don't have enough marketing budget, you're going to go on to any of the paid platforms be it google, linkedin, reddit, meta and ultimately not be able to afford your audience if you're using paid ads, or you're not going to be able to bring in the expertise when it comes to SEO, you're not going to afford tooling. So I think, on that side, more money is going to give you more results. But I think a lot of the time, we focus on spending money in the wrong place. So I think we've kind of spoken about it here where we can just scale up what we're spending on Google, or scale up what we're spending on LinkedIn, or just chuck more money at a social media agency.

Haydn Woods-Williams

I think the one thing across all of these marketing channels that is going to be the best place to invest your money is always going to be content, and that doesn't mean spending thousands of pounds, going to hire a studio and having a round table. That is spending time on having people who have worked on the strategy, be it in your own team or working with an agency, and building content that is reflective of your brand values, that sells, that you are an expert, that builds trust with your audience, and if that's where you're putting the money. Actually, when it comes to spending money using an agency for social media on SEO, paid media through email, everything is going to perform better because your content is of a higher quality and is therefore going to be more attractive to your target audience.

Rich Harper

Because if you're a big enterprise level B2B business, then, yeah, you probably are going to have substantial marketing budgets. But sometimes when we work with those kind of SME level businesses, it's actually what puts them up is they don't have an endless pot of money that they can keep going into, to go. Well, we're not hitting numbers and I regularly hear them getting the advice well, it's because you don't spend enough. And let's be fair, some of the platforms we've got clients that spend hundreds of thousands of pounds a year. We've got some that spend thousands of pounds a year. It doesn't matter.

Rich Harper

When you go to some of these platforms Metin, as good as the reps are a lot of the time the advice we get is you need to spend more money, because it actually puts smaller businesses off and it gives marketing a bad name. And the reality is, whatever budget you have, you just need to use it wisely. So, like touching on your point, don't just go out. If you've got a thousand pound a month and chuck it on google ads and expect it to just work. If you haven't put the investment in to, like you say, your, your content and that goes with any channel don't go and invest in a social media agency and get them to push stuff out on a daily basis and expect it to work. If the content that's being pushed out is very samey, it's not driving traffic or driving those kind of eyes on your brand. Those are the things where people don't have a solid strategy and haven't put a plan in place. When it does come to it, they're just told spend more money because this isn't working.

Haydn Woods-Williams

Oh, if you spend more, you'll get more impressions, you'll get more eyes on this, when, in actual fact, some of the most successful brands smaller brands, startup challenger brands what they do very well is manage that kind of brand building on a smaller scale, sometimes competing with much larger brands we were actually talking about that the other day when we around liquid death I think we've spoken about surreal in the past and understanding that to make an impact you know we're looking at fmcg there but to make an impact in industries when you have these Goliaths, goliath brands, you need to think about things differently.

Haydn Woods-Williams

You can't just copy what a Coca-Cola is doing or what a Nike is doing, because ultimately you're going to look like a shitter pastiche of what they're doing. You've got to kind of try and find your way of standing out, but also standing out in a way that is standing out in the right way to attract people and compete. And I know we we spoke a little about about mark ritson's article, uh, in that conversation as well where he basically says about how, you know, we can look at the success of someone like Liquid Death but actually in comparison to Evian or Coca-Cola, they are a tiny, tiny splash in the ocean. But across any industry there's going to be the big players and there's going to be challenger brands. And if there aren't challenger brands, then the big players are just going to get stale. And it's your job as a smaller brand, a growing brand, to really kind of push the boundaries and you've got so much more freedom to do that as well.

Rich Harper

Yeah, and I think what he was saying in that article was you know that Liquid Death is the current fad and that the brand is only popular within marketing circles. Because you circles, because they're really clever They've taken on the big Evions and Coca-Colas of the world and they've done it because they've come out with cool branding. There's some truth in what that article was saying, but also I think it should be lauded that a small brand has managed to enter a space that is basically driven by the big players, and they were never, ever going to compete with coca-cola on a money scale, because they won't. So what they have done is, instead, of going to distributing supermarkets and put their products next to all of the big guys in the fridge. And yes, their can is different. It's not a bland water bottle with mountains on it, like every other water brand, but they haven't chosen to go down that route. What they've chosen to do is come up with a cool package for their product.

Rich Harper

At the end of the day, it's still water in a can. It probably tastes the same as any other water from a bottle, but they've gone about it in a different way. They've gone to places like festivals, bars, nightclubs and they've offered it as a healthy alternative and people think they look. You know, people look cool because they're drinking essentially looks like an energy drink or, you know, an alcoholic beverage because of the packaging, but they're drinking water, so they've they've audience in in a different place where the other guys are not playing as hard because they knew they couldn't compete. They're not going to compete with them. In now I'm advertising and in on the store shelves, so they've gone somewhere else. And that's what you can do if you have a smaller budget is just think about it sensibly. How can you make that budget go further?

Haydn Woods-Williams

don't try and compete against people that basically are going to, you know, outspend you with eating well done on tying that back to uh, to our myth, because I think we were very close to going on a massive tangent there. But it's fine. I think, if we're going to look at that misconception, more money means more results and you've kind of summed up there a little bit. Is there kind of a tip that you think someone can go away today and do? I'm particularly thinking about those growing brands in B2B spaces where you can't be as sexy as Liquid Death or as cheeky and fun as Surreal, which in an FMCG market, is a little bit easier.

Rich Harper

I know this is to be a point I slightly disagree. I think you can, in B2B space, be more creative, yeah. So actually I am going to say against, against what you just said. Maybe this is a point to take away if you don't have huge budgets, get more creative. Don't follow the bigger players that are doing stuff and try and copy and paste what they're doing, because it won't work. You'll end up drowning so a bit like liquid death. Take lessons away from from that marketplace.

Rich Harper

If you're a smaller band, think about where your audience are, that the other players may be not so prevalent and and get creative with your messaging. We talked about liquid death. Let's just stay on that for the minute. If they went out with a bland bottle, with mountains selling more water, would they have been a successful? Don't think so, and that, I think, is a lesson that we can take across the B2B land. There's always going to be a competitor that's bigger than you, that has more money than you, so don't think, because they may be number one in the market, that you need to replicate what they're doing. Really, think about your own brand and, to your point earlier about content, really kind of hone down on what your content is what your tone of voice is, what your values are as a brand, and then drive that out in your messaging in the most creative, efficient way you can to the marketing budget that you have isn't.

Haydn Woods-Williams

I'm going to build on that a little bit more. You mentioned doing that for your brand and make it for your brand. Do it for your product as well. Work your product teams and make sure that the product matches that kind of sense of creativity that you have in your brand. I think, on top of that, one thing that I would say, when it comes to budget in particular, is try and test things and I know testing gets thrown around all the time. You don't have to do really complex testing, just try different ways of doing things, see what resonates with your audience and then start thinking about putting your money behind that. Don't go all in blind Kind of test lots of different things, choose what works and crack down on that.

Haydn Woods-Williams

We do probably have to wrap it up there. Were we going to get some more myths in that kind of quick, no five to 10 minute section? Probably should have done, but we didn't. If you are interested in hearing us debunk some more of those marketing myths and talk about how you can maximize ROI on your marketing spend, do look in the description section of this podcast and register for our webinar. Don't Spend More, spend Smarter. Maximising ROI on your Marketing Spend, which is taking place on the 30th of August at 3pm. British Summer time.

Tom Inniss

So that's all we've had time for today. Thank you so much for listening. We hope you found some useful snippets in our session and are able to go and put them into your own marketing strategy. We love that you've made it this far through your listen and we love making this content for you, so if you could recommend the show to one friend that you think would enjoy it, we'd be exceptionally grateful. Alternatively, if you've hated this podcast, then send it to someone you don't like. Thank you to all of the Brew Digital team for their research and input in today's session. Make sure to check out our past episodes and subscribe on whatever platform you listen to your podcasts on, and we will see you on the next one. I have not been Hayden, but these have been the marketers of the universe.